"[Louisa Jessop gave] birth to a son, Richard, her third child. And now, she tells NBC News, she is in a small and bare room furnished with a foam mattress on the floor in a foster home in Austin, Texas...
"Her husband, Dan Jessop, is staying at a motel in town. Her other two children, Amber, 4, and Rolan, 2, are in a foster home under the custody of the Texas Child Protection Service (CPS) [all of which were born before moving to the ranch]...
"She says she's 22 and has presented authorities with a driver's license and birth certificate to prove it. But CPS spokesman Chris Van Deusen told NBC that the department has classified her as a "disputed minor," the term used for FLDS women whose age has not been established to the department's satisfaction. Until her age is established, they are treating her as if she is a minor...
"They said I looked like I was under 18," she said...
"Louisa Jessop has contributed DNA for state-ordered testing and hopes that the question of her age is soon settled so that she can leave with her son...
"She said that she is Dan Jessop's only wife and that the couple had moved to the Eldorado, Texas ranch from the FLDS community on the Arizona-Utah border just a few months before the raid..." Read the whole story here.
And read here how Another Monogomous Adult Couple Pleads for their Children...
"Lori Jessop, the EMT technician we've heard about before, has been sleeping at a woman's shelter at night and going to see her 11 month old nursling during the day. The state has yet to tell her where her other two children are. Her husband is living in a different temporary shelter. A social worker told her that when her son has his first birthday next week, the state will celebrate it by kicking his mother out of his life." - Deputy Headmistress
Click here to read Dangerous Cult or Dangerous Precedent
And here's a recent interview with two couples sharing their trauma...
Tuesday, May 13, 2008
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
45 earnest comments:
Thank you for keeping us up on this. I haven't seen this exactly plastered all over the headlines.
Carolyn
Thank you for posting that video Stacy! I am glad these families are not giving up and are doing what they can to get their children back.
There are 2 sides to every story. We've heard the state of Texas' side and now hopefully we will be hearing more of the FLDS ladies' and their husband's side as well.
The state of Texas could have wrapped this whole thing up already instead of prolonging it and dragging their feet.
Amazing...Louisa gives proof of her age and the state doesn't believe her! The eye ball test, yep that's real effective...
I know many people who are 25-30 years old and they look 18.
It's just crazy...
And my hubby and I are moving to Texas in July and to see just a piece of how the state is handling this situation makes me uneasy.
Who will be next? The Mennonites that live there?
The Pentecostals?
Homeschooling families who may or may not vaccinate?
Thank the Lord our time left here on Earth is short and it is evident His return is in the very near future <><
Dawn
This worries me so much. Although I do not agree with them what is to stop our government from coming after us too. Dh and I were married when he was 19 and I was 17 w/parental consent. We had our first child when I was 19. I must say that not to long ago waiting until you were 16 or older you were considered an "old maid" lol. Dh and I now have six children and have been married almost 19 years. Really scary. We must pray for those little ones and their parents.
I am 35 and the mother of 6 children, and people who don't know my age look at me funny and tell me I'm not old enough to have so many children. Or that I look like a teenager (that comment is coming fewer these days, though, with gray hairs popping up). I especially get weird looks when I'm running errands with my oldest teenage son and the smallest 2 children! I can not imagine having my family broken up on the basis that I don't LOOK old enough!
I have seen interviews where these woman have said, very bluntly, that they will by lying and misleading to deceive and confuse the authorities.
They believe that they are raising their children right-to believe that poloygamy and child marriage and submission (and not the good Biblical submission) are good and expected. That women are not equally valued in the eyes of the Lord.
I never want to see a child wrongfully separated from its parent. Has Texas done the right thing? For some, maybe. And maybe not for others.
This is a difficult issue.
I know God has a wonderful grand plan for all those precious children.
P.S. The interview on NBC was not based entirely in truth. NBC promised not to ask certain questions. Important questions.
I Was Reading More on this topic this morning and discussing it with my husband. I looked 13 till i was 23 and looked barely 16 well until 25 , and at 28 I am Still Mistaken for my early 20's. How Many Times Have I been Accosted by Police for being a Truant or a Runaway because some nice "informer " called them , 4 times in my whole life , an ID and a Birth Cert were Always Enough Then.
Someone Has to Stand up for these people.
While My Belief System Is Intrinsically Different.I Must Say That I was Taught From a Very early age that this country stood for freedom.
Not Acts of Terrorism.
Not Harassment .
When Did It Become OKAY to Treat People Different Because Their Spiritual Systems Deviate From The Norm.
This Is Not The America I was Taught to Have Faith in.
There seems to me that FREEDOM is no longer a Valid term in the US.
Just an Illusion.
Like I've said before, we don't know the whole story. Obviously there are going to be a lot of emotions involved in this kind of discussion. But I don't believe we (the public) know everything, nor should we. It shouldn't be so easy to form hard and fast opinions strictly from the news coverage.
Hopefully it all works out in the end.
This is just scary and frustrating. I may not agree with all their beliefs but they seem like great loving moms and dads. On a side note my cousins daughter was 11 or 12 when she became promiscuis (sp?) at 13 she had her first child. The babies father was 20 or 21. The state did nothing to him and they did not take the child away and I know she was not a good mother. Even while pregnant she continued to party. Even when negligence landed the baby in the hospital the child was placed with my aunt (the babies great grandma) for a short period of time. this just goes to show that it has nothing to do with parenting skills and everything to do with their beliefs.
I am still horrified by how this has all been handled. What I am really thinking is, "Listen up Christian families especially those who don't watch TV, vaccinate, allow dc to attend Youth Group, date, or dress in whatever immodest clothing they want- YOU are next!"
Remember, we are called to be a 'peculiar' people! Over and over I read how citizens do not 'like' how these children are being raised because it is 'weird'. That is not a justifiable reason to support CPS removing hundreds of children. Weird does not equal abuse.
How ridiculous is it that we are required to provide for our childrens needs, but if they think we are 'weird' it is justifiable to remove our children.
That being said...My husband is ex-LDS and most definitely the LDS church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith in regards to polygamy. However they do work towards going to the Celestial Kingdom, attaining godhood and having many wives who birth hundreds of children. That is clearly unbiblical. I absolutely believe the LDS and FLDS and any mormon group at all is a cult. However, that does not justify removing their children without proof of abuse and imminent danger. There most definitely needs to be a thorough investigation into the allegations. The way things have been handled in Texas is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to both the parents and the children.
It is ignorant to believe that just because we don't agree with this 'cult' we should support the state removing all these children. If we use a little logic and apply this situation to the Christian home-school community, then we should all be getting a visit from the local SWAT team to remove our children.
If you want to debate it then you have to examine it from the affirmative and the negative side.
Take the logic all the way to the end and you will see a frightening outcome with the Government telling us how we can and cannot raise our children for the Lord. Imagine them telling us we are required to have cable TV because our children have the 'right' to it. Imagine them telling us we must allow our children to have birth control at 12 years old. Keep going and you get my point.
It isn't cut and dry. It seems to me it is more a feminist issue. Whith boggles the mind. Feminists support our right to 'have it all' but do not support our right tos follow our God given convictions.
Equally it seems to be a childrens right issue. Children have a right to TV and vaccines that have not been proven safe, EVER. They have a right to birth control. Children have a right to go to a public school and eat garbage. When that child gets ill due to exercising their right they also have a right to medical care then we must provide as it is our duty to.
Oh boy. I am very concerned about the next generation and the fight they will have. May God have mercy on us as we raise them up to be strong, thinking leaders for His glory. I pray we will look at this and cry out for justice. I pray, earnestly, that the abusers in this situation will be found and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I pray for the salvation of ALL who are involved in this cult.
I pray that we can look at this and react in a way that will bring change to our wicked society and that God will protect us from those that do not seek his ways.
Michelle W
Amanda, I think you bring up very interesting points and I just wanted to add that I completely agree with you and your assessment of the situation.
Dawn, I don't necessarily think that this is a foreshadowing of the Lord's return in the very near future...
Mrs. McDonald,
Thanks for keeping us aware of what's going on, and encouraging us to keep monitoring the news. Miss Carolyn is right -information on this situation is especially hard to come my these days.
Excellent points, Amanda. I wish this poor lady was better treated, but part of the blame for her treatment goes to the other women who bluntly admitted to lying. I have to say, it's about time one of the men showed their faces! It's a shame that even those of healthy, legal marriages are being mistreated.
"Remember, we are called to be a 'peculiar' people!"
These people go way beyond peculiar; you know that.
Thanks for the update, Stacy. It's good to know that there are some innocent and good souls in this sect, even though I take NBC's accounts with a grain of salt.
This is only the beginning of the persecution's of others in this nation that are Christians. So sad. It breaks my heart this woman has not seen her boys in 37 days. 37 Days! Now, that is abuse.
I like this blog, and am not being contrary here for its own sake. I’m a huge fan of preserving religious freedom, and have personally sacrificed a lot to do just that, but I have a really hard time sympathizing with the FLDS people who were living on that ranch.
They should not be illegally detained by authorities. They should be allowed to confront their accusers and access the evidence against them. Their treatment is a miscarriage of justice.
BUT I think the authorities are on the right track, even if their tactics are contemptible.
Here in Canada, we have our own polygamist community of Bountiful, BC; and there was plenty of evidence that under-aged girls were being trafficked across the border (during Warren Jeffs’ reign) to be “sealed” to men in other communities. These girls became “sister wives” with other woman who themselves had children the same age.
If a man “fell from grace” within the community, his wives were assigned to other men – like livestock, dispersed from the insolvent estate of a debtor. It was a disgusting violation of individual rights for the girls, being treated as chattel; and no argument can convince me that trading human beings like baseball cards is an acceptable way of exercising religious freedom.
This isn’t about their being a “peculiar people”; it’s about the endemic abuse of power that occurs in a closed system which lacks checks and balances. It’s about sex slavery, to which the girls are trained from infancy.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I honestly don’t see how the very people who are concerned with legislating against gay marriage between consenting adults can at the same time defend the FLDS on the grounds of religious freedom even while that group practices an illegal form of “marriage” that involves sexual congress between an adult male and (potentially) multiple minors who are incapable of granting consent.
Forget that anonymous phone call; the old men with harems of minors should have been in prison years ago, regardless.
Their parents grant consent Sure, because we all know that the average 15-year-old is truly interested in hopping into bed with a boil-infested 50-year-old guy who has six other wives and a few dozen children.
I can see some kids consenting to that, but every single one of them – every minor child currently “married” to a man, has consented?
It’s gross – and one has to leap across a huge chasm to compare the FLDS with regular home-schooling families.
‘Oh, we don’t watch television, so perhaps we’ll find ourselves in their shoes.’
No. It’s more like: ‘Oh, I sold my 15-year-old daughter to a friend of mine for $1000, and gave The Prophet a cut for legitimizing my sexual abuse of a minor. What if the government objects?’
If you want to see the biggest difference between the women in the FLDS and yourselves, try asking them to articulate their own beliefs beyond a handful of talking points. Try getting a straight answer from them about anything. They won’t give it to you, because they can’t. Their early training never included the option of leaving that sect.
Testing
I think one aspect of this situation is not getting the attention it deserves in this discussion:
These children are being raised in a CULT. They are being brainwashed into believing FALSE DOCTRINE. If they do not learn and accept the TRUTH they will be ETERNALLY DAMNED.
What could be more dangerous than this?
Obviously I am not saying that the State has handled this 100 percent correctly, neither am I saying that the State has these children's eternal welfare in mind.
But we as Christians know the ultimate end of this false teaching.
Is it preferable to allow a child to be so 'protected' by its parents that he/she has no access to outside information, and so to the truth of the real gospel?
Let us not turn a blind eye to the dangers of this and other cults just because the choices of these people regarding clothing, home education etc resonate with our own!
I have to say that I am really sickened by this disucssion. How can you even compare this situation to homeschooling, healthcare choices, or denomination. The only similarities that I see between the above and the FDLS is that they are all counter cultural choices...but what the FDLS has done is illegal. Being Pentocostal is not illegal. I am surprised that you would defend them to the point of alligning and comparing yourself with them.
I do think that its sad and heartbreaking to have your children taken away but just because one is a mother it doens't mean that she is immune to mistakes. Staying in that compound where child labor, mulitple wives, uneducated children and child brides are common every day practice does make any of those women innocent.
The story is heartbreaking. I agree.
In every single aspect.
As others have said, we don't know it all. Just watching that video revealed that they go around in circles when questioned, and that makes them suspicious.
Amanda, I agree.
Anonymous Michelle, I agree, it is inconstitutional to consider guilty unless proven otherwise, but these women who so desperately want their children back are also being rather elusive. How is the government supposed to know the truth?
Alyzza, good points.
Eirini, yes, we can't forget, this is a cult. They've been indoctrinated from a very young age to do what the prophet dictates. Parents will give consent, of course, otherwise they are in rebellion and lose their salvation. Besides, I believe that lying is more acceptable to them than betrayal, and telling the truth, in this case, may constitute betrayal for them.
It's all about control, I think.
Watching that video really made my heart go out for those families, but I also sense that they aren't telling the truth.
The first time I heard what was happening to these families out in Texas, I immediately thought, "Oh no! is this going to be another Waco?" For any spring chickens out there who might not remember what happened in Waco, Texas; here's a brief overview. In 1993,during Bill Clinton's administration, our media told us terrifying stories about how a cult was stock-piling weapons, brain-washing cult members etc...and that its leader David Koresh claimed to be God. Over and over the media showed David Koresh saying, "I'm god". Months later, I was able to watch a video that showed the complete interview, which gave an entirely different understanding of the situation. Although this is not an exact quote,the interview went something like this: "Its been said that you have gotten an 85 year old woman pregnant, is that true?" Cult leader's response, "If I got an 85 year old women pregant, then I'm god". The media didn't show the public anything but the last phrase, "I'm god". Months later our government took tanks into the compound, punctured walls and injected teargas into the buildings which later caused massive explosions and killed numerous men, women and children, who were to terrified to come out, due to endless harrassment and abuse by our armed forces. The same tactics used in war (playing rock music and terrifying screams over huge speakers all through the night as well as many other outrageous things intended to frighten those inside) had been used on these people.
Here's my thought! Over and over the excuse we hear, as to why it's right for our government to separate these families, is so that innocent women and children will be protected from abuse. Yet, as I've reflected over the stories I've heard, I've wondered! Who is it thats causing more abuse. I can't imagine the terror I would feel if armored tanks and rough military soldiers broke into my home and forcibly separated me from my loved ones.
I personally, grieve for what happened at Waco, and what is presently happening to these FLDS people. It's not that I share any of their beliefs, yet we do share a country that was founded on the right for an individual to have freedom of religion.
Investigations may have needed to take place, but they should have been begun with, "innocent until proven guilty" approaches. These families didn't need to be separated so hastily.
Christian people! We need to wake from our slumber! Persecution is coming! If we sleep and remain quiet while others suffer, we will soon be the ones crying for help. Reading an early translation of "Foxes Book of Martyrs" might be a good place to begin.
Melissa
I should not type until I have had my coffee in the morning. My comment should have read
"Staying in that compound where child labor, mulitple wives, uneducated children and child brides are common every day practice does not make any of those women innocent."
STacy, thank you for posting about this again. I encourage many commenters to research a little more thoroughly. Where is the abuse? You KNOW if they had "dozens" of pregnant teens (which they earlier claimed), they'd have shouted it from the rooftops by now. Instead we get headlines referencing some broken bones (later shown to be minor and equal to or less than average), possible sexual abuse of young boys (later admitted to uncertainty about that), and NO currently pregnant underage girls or absurdly-young mothers.
I agree, their theology is bad, very bad. But anyone who wants to hand the authority of determining "appropriate theology" over to the state is absolutely un-American in my eyes. We are concerned about their Eternal damnation? Who here thinks being ripped from your family and home and put into foster care will remedy that? Who thinks the State should be the militant arm of Sunday School? NOT ME!
These parents should not be stripped of their rights because of what SOME OTHER people in their faith/neighborhood/family/community have done or are doing. This isn't (or shouldn't be) about Bountiful, Canada or the crimes committed by leaders or anyone else. Catholic priests have hit the headlines over rampant sexual abuse and cover-up; should we start rounding up devout catholic families??? Too, many readers here likely think Catholics have faulty theology... In the interest of their souls, should we remove all catholic children into state custody?
Take any ghetto or public school... based on evidence so far, I'd bet the FLDS have lower rates of underage pregnancy, abuse, and all the other concerns.
I'm sorry to rant, but PLEASE, ladies, think this through. Whether or not you agree with their lifestyle (and yes, it's repugnant to me), look for FACTS and EVIDENCE and LAWS before you pragmatically endorse what's going on here.
Ellajac, many of your points use incomplete logic. If you really compare these cult people to Catholics, I think you have no idea how they work.
"Take any ghetto or public school... based on evidence so far, I'd bet the FLDS have lower rates of underage pregnancy, abuse, and all the other concerns."
Now, please: I can't believe this argument is still circling. The difference between public schools and cults: girls are not forced/brainwashed into thinking they must have underaged sex. BIG difference!! In public schools I'm familiar with, students are warned away from it with every STD threat in the book; QUITE a difference from virtually breeding women on the idea that they must start sharing a spouse with several other women absurdly young. (And btw, yes, there are currently underaged mothers. There are also women who have proven to have had children while sixteen, even if they're legal NOW).
I suggest you read the other comments here and find that the women here, while sympathizing with the children, are quite aware of the abuse that's gone on in the cult and are far from pragmatic in their reasoning.
The real problem here is that the state has overstepped its boundaries. In fact, it pretends it has no boundaries - all under the guise of protecting those who have supposedly been abused. I'm not minimizing any real abuse that has taken place - but I haven't seen any proof. If anything, the only solid abuse I've seen has come from the hands of the governement.
I could go into an impoverished neighborhood and decide that surely half of the children in those homes are being neglected, abused, molested, or emotionally harmed. Some of their parents may be on drugs, involved in prostitution, or a part of some demonic group of some sort. I may not have actual proof, but I can eyeball the situation and make a decision - or perhaps I can just base my opinion on that anonymous phone tip I received.
The children there may actually do well if I were to violate the rights of every family in that neighborhood and take their children away - putting them into good Christian homes. However, would the end justify the means? Would it be right for me to wrong them (and those who are innocent within the neighborhood) simply because they would be "better off" if I decide how they are to be raised, instead of their parents?
That's what's happened here - except the state isn't putting them in "good, Christian homes," they're putting them in state assigned foster homes.
My goodness! Christians can't even agree on how children are to be raised! How can the state decide such things? (Again, I'm not talking about forced marriages, abuse, or rape - which is all unproven to date)
Either way, guilty or innocent, these people are being treated as if they're guilty (ALL of them) until they can prove they're innocent. And even when they do prove that they're innocent, the proof is ignored or rejected.
And I would agree with what someone else wrote - I think the more extreme abuse and trauma has been inflicted by the state.
No, I'm sure we don't know all the details of each case - and that goes both ways.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
- Ronald Reagan
And read what Deputy Headmistress has to say:
http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2008/05/count-pregnant-teens.html
Rod Parker, speaking for FLDS, said the "state's own documents show that just two teenagers in custody are pregnant." He said he based this "on a list that was given to him by an unnamed source who said the document was generated by Texas Child Protective Services.
Of the three teenagers listed as pregnant, Parker said, one is about to turn 18 and another refused to take a pregnancy test, he said. "That leaves us with one," he said."
Try none? Unless others have turned up since then, the one who was about to turn 18 is the Jeffs girl who gave birth on the 29th of April. The other would be the 22 year old who gave birth on Monday (the state is still saying she's a minor, when asked by reporters. At least sometimes).
Warren Jeffs’ own words…
On consent: “Some girls foolishly declare in their youth – and it’s heard by people – ‘I don’t want this plural marriage.' And word gets to the prophet. You can foolishly express some of these things and hurt yourself.” He goes on to say that girls who trust The Prophet, and the Lord (presumably in that order) will have their eyes opened to how great this plural marriage racket is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGqJIqe6LEE
On women being traded away from men who fall from grace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azWIIdVTAV0
And as for the matter of eternal damnation, I’ve got a whopper for you. It seems The Prophet is the purest man on Earth (@ 4:58): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4tXiIiuX5s
Celestial marriage – the greatest thing a girl can achieve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfwGrCib4h0
Winston Blackmore, the (now former) Bishop of Bountiful, had some words of his own. I watched the original program in 2003.
Here’s a partial transcript: http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy100.html
Order the whole thing: http://www.cbclearning.ca/CBCEDS/shopping/product.aspx?CatalogName=CBCEDSBase&CategoryName=law_all_law_titles&Product_ID=Y8G-02-07&Variant_ID=Y8G-02-07-020101
The trafficking of young girls across the border: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_DlDojGCi0
Rape and incest of girls in Canada and the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ95YXggUPs
It turns out six women in that Texas community came from Bountiful, BC:
http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/World/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CBC-WORLD-V2&newsitemid=polygamists-canada&showbyline=True
Here’s a lot more on the subject, for those of you who are interested: http://www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html
There may only be two pregnant teenagers in state custody right now, but it isn’t hard for them to count back the children’s ages and find out when many of the other women first became pregnant.
I'm not suggesting that people trust the government implicitly, or that we wink at their violations of others' rights. I am saying, however, that the government is not without reason here.
I know some people think of this as an assault based on religious conviction, but that's not how I see it.
Alyzza, you are right on track and I agree with every single word you've written. This is not at all about "persecuting" people because they dress like Laura Ingalls, homeschool, and shun TV... they are NOT coming for large Christian homeschooling families next because this is not about the state being in disagreement with the way these kids are being raised. This is about sex abuse- something the FLDS has a LONG track record of facilitating.
"It’s gross – and one has to leap across a huge chasm to compare the FLDS with regular home-schooling families."
AMEN and AMEN!
Alyzza, thank you the courage to post a dissenting, yet well-reasoned opinion. You are spot on with everything and I, for one, am in total agreement.
Allow me to humbly clarify...as Christians we are called to be a peculiar people. Others view us as such in how we run our homes, raise our children, and the personal choices we make. The World doesn't get it, they don't understand why we do what we do. They are in the flesh, we are fighting our flesh.
The FLDS clearly are not following Gods commands. They are not adhearing to Gods standard given in His holy, unfallable Word. The World does see them as strange because they are so different. The World doesn't understand them and why they do what they do. The World will not deny itself whatever it wants. I refer to the World as those not Chrisitan looking in on the FLDS, but let me make it clear that the FLDS is a part of the world. I have to make some distinction so I am not accused of aligning Christians with FLDS.
See, the World see us as peculiar and FLDS as weird. Not a big leap to see how easily the treatment of the FLDS could be used in the same fashion against Christians.
It is critical we uphold the LAW. I cannot stress this enough. In our desperation to destroy these cults we are inadvertantly hurting ourselves. If we uphold the law, then that same law will protect our rights. But to just disregard the law to destroy this cult is unwise. I am fearful of the consequences for us. We are already discriminated against where other beliefs are respected. Jumping on the' let the government crush the freakish FLDS' bandwagon is not such a smart idea. We are pleading for the law to uphold our right to religious freedom, and yet we want them to disregard the law to destroy the FLDS? Slippery slope.
How about being less hateful and judgemental of the women and pray for them to have boldness and tell the truth. If they are so 'brainwashed' then don't they need our mercy, and love, and the truth of our Lord to free them from bondage?
I am still waiting for the evidence of abuse. I want names of abusers, I want to see the underage pregnant girls with my our eyes. I want to see SOMETHING other than they live in another century.
Polygamy is unlawful and sinful. So, prosecute the polygamists! But to raid the compound for child abuse and have nothing to evidence it is just plain old wrong. How about raid the compound for practicing polygamy???? Arrest them and prosecute them, all of them.
Now that, my friends, would be upholding the law.
Michelle W
I'd like to clarify one or two points concerning my earlier comment:
- Firstly, I'd like to repeat what I said earlier, that I am by no means condoning the WAY the State has handled all aspects of this case.
- I am also NOT recommending that we remove children from their parents if we happen to disagree with their theology (in response to Ellajac).
But this is NOT just a question of bad theology.
It is a question of practices that are not only abominable in the eyes of God, but also illegal in the eyes of hopefully every civilized nation in the world.
Oh yes, I know the argument is that no one has actually PROVED much yet, but please do consider the following:
- Proving abuse and/or other crimes is a lengthy and complicated process in a court of law and children have the right to be protected while investigations are conducted and concluded.
- Hypothetically, if my neighbours were to report me as being suspect of abusing my children, it is likely that they (my children) would be removed from my custody until it could be determined whether o not it was safe for them to remain with me.
_ Few children that were being abused by their parents (or that were being placed in abusive situations under the authority of the parents), would admit to such while in the company of their parents or other members of their cult. It is necessary to take factors such as fear and intimidation into account.
- This is my own conjecture only, but please consider if this might also be a possibility.
People may be held by the authorities in order to prevent escape with an eye to continuing the same practices in another community in another part of the country. Such 'escape' could effectively prevent a real investigation as to whether or not abuse was realy taking place.
Dear Ellajac,
I have thought this through as you recommend at the end of your comment, and I'd like to answer as we're both here in the interest of having our thinking challenged by Biblical standards. I'd love to hear your (and others') further comments:
You wrote:
'Catholic priests have hit the headlines over rampant sexual abuse and cover-up; should we start rounding up devout catholic families???'
I would answer with an emphatic 'no'.
Although pedophilia no doubt occurs in many denominations (including but not exclusively the Catholic church), it is not promoted - directly or indirectly - by official church teaching. Nor has it been traditionally a part of what is considered to be good behaviour on the part of church members (major understatement here!).
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of many typically Mormon practices. The practice of polygamy
has traditionally been a part of the Mormon church. This is clear both from the teaching of the church, and from the testimony of countless former members of the church.
And polygamy is illegal in the eyes of the State (at least I assume that this is the case in an absolute sense; I am writing from the other side of the world).
Murder too is not legal. The practice of blood atonement has also been described by former members of this cult. It refers to the belief that the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient to atone for all our sins, and that for certain sins it is necessary that the sinner's own blood be shed (for example, by having his throat slit by other members of the cult). Members are told that only in this way might they be prevented from a fate of eternal punishment in hell for their particularly gross sin.
And unfortunately there have also been allegations over many years of pracices such as forced marriage, underage marriage and child labour. I am not saying that ALL allegations have been proven (how easy would it be to prove such abuse in a probable atmosphere of secrecy, and possibly fear of punishment?)
But if such rumours abounded, would there be no justification for taking seriously a new allegation, albeit in the form of an annonymous phone call?
I mentioned in my previous comment that if hypothetically my neighbours suspected me of abusing my children and reported me to the authorities, the authorities would probably take my children into custody for their own safety until the alleged abuse could either be proven or disproven.
I think this would be the case most PARTICULARLY if I had a HISTORY OF ABUSIVE TENDENCIES.
This claim that abuse was being carried out did not occur in a vacuumn - but in the context of a LONG HISTORY of doctrine that condones illegal practices, testimonies of the actual practice of illegal activities and many former allegations of abusive behaviour in the context of a particular reliious group.
I definitely don't want to fall into the trap of pragmatically endorsing abuse on the part of the government. I agree with Alyzza who wrote:
'They should not be illegally detained by authorities. They should be allowed to confront their accusers and access the evidence against them. Their treatment is a miscarriage of justice.'
and also that the authoritoies tactics are 'contemptible'.
But neither do I wish to minimize the horrors of a cult in order to support a claim that the government should NEVER have the right to interfere in the choices a parent makes on behalf of his/her children.
Stacy,
Thank you for helping us to keep up with this story. I think it is *critical* that all Christians follow this one closely.
While the allegations of abuse at the FLDS camp are indeed grievous,it is important to keep in mind that they are merely "allegations". Hearsay. "He said, she said" type of thing.No charges have been made. While evidence may exist, none has yet been found.
The larger and far more grievous issue is that the state has overstepped its bounds. "Innocent until proven guilty" and due process are vital to our form of government, and are very key to keeping us all safe from government tyranny. Without these checks on government power, any of us, even the most innocent and law-abiding, are in danger of having our rights violated and our freedoms trampled upon.
In reality, *any of us* can be accused of child abuse. It could be an anonymous tip from literally anyone under the sun who wanted to make trouble for our families--from a nosy neighbor to a disgruntled paramedic to someone in another state who had nothing better to do than call CPS. And without the proper checks on government authority, such as "innocent until proven guilty", "due process", etc. *any of us* could end up losing our children, all because a mere allegation was accepted as truth and acted upon--no evidence required.
This is why it is so important that we understand what is at stake here and speak out against what has happened to the FLDS group. The rights and liberties of *every single person* in this country are at risk unless the government is made to exercise proper restraint in how allegations and accusations are handled.
I pray that this trend can be reversed so that we, our children, and our grandchildren can live in freedom.
I'm no scholar on FLDS, but I've tried to read up on all sides... From what I know (and we have a local author who was involved), the 'blood atonement' stuff was part of the LeBaron group, not associated with the Jeffs one. I could be wrong on this. There are many "fundamentalist" lds, not all of whom are associated with this specific group.
Jennifer, I'm not sure how we can't compare catholics with the same argument used here with FLDS. Rampant abuse of power, abuse of children... And I daresay that there is a 'culture' of underaged sex being encouraged and promoted by teens themselves and Planned Parenthood. How is this different? Parents and teachers might try to say otherwise, but they willingly hand their children over to influences that pressure them to do it. They don't try to say it's holy, but how many among us aspire to teach our daughters that the utmost calling is to marry and raise up children in the Lord? Seems to me the FLDS have a similar idea, and some aspire to that effort earlier than modern America thinks is appropriate (and laws dictate).
Eirini,
You are right that this cult has a legacy of alleged abuses. But I'm finding another side to that as well.. We hear from the former members (who are also selling books) about all the evils and abuses, but there are other former members who say completely the opposite. Others who've been 'kicked out' even, who swear that these wild claims by others are complete falsehoods, brought on by bitterness or whatever. YES, investigate a call. I'm not questioning that. What I question is how the state can round up a whole neighborhood (underage and not, polygamous or monogamous, texas residence or not) and remove their children. If this is about 'abuse' as they claim, let's go with that.... What is/was the primary claim of abuse? Underage marriage and pregnancy... If that's all this is about then there is absolutely NO risk to girls, say, under 14 or so, and NO risk to boys at all. Would you recommend removing all the 3-year-olds for a year or two while we investigate whether a 13-year-old got pregnant 11 years ago in another state?
And I guess you can try to prosecute polygamy; Texas has made several law-changes recently to facilitate that. But I hope they hold every philandering man to the same standard, including politicians. :)
I don't defend their lifestyle or theology (and it seems their 'practices' are indeed wrapped up in theology), but if we're going to use 'belief system' as the 'abuse,' then we're all at risk. (and the state did argue it with those terms).
i find it horrifying that people who homeschool or don't have tv are even thinking about comparing themselves to FLDS.
From what i can tell, the authorities aren't believing women who claim to be of age (even with a driver's license and birth certificate which are both fakable) because this group has specifically said they will lie if necessary and send the authorities in the wrong direction if the prophet wants them to or some other high authority
I have no experience with homeschooling or any of that so i could very well be wrong, but you don't COMPLETELY cut off your children from the world. Just by having internet is part of the world. Yes it should be closely monitored but at the same time it is a 'worldy' tool. We still have to live in this world, the bible is full of people who left home to spread the gospel and without them many people would not be able to know Jesus. Stacy, if i remember correctly you're originally from NZ (sorry if i have you mistaken with someone else) and NZ was canablistic until some missionaries came and brought the gospel.
I hope for these children's sakes that they are not returned to their parents until their parents are cleared from having abused them in any way. The FLDS has a history of abuse so i think the authorities have every right to step in.
This whole thing is a bit disconjointed so sorry about that . But no child should be left with parents who are abusive or allow abuse from others. Studies show that even a 12 year old girl who is sexually abused by a parent will ask to go back to that parent because that's the only love she knows. There's a great line from the movie Marnie directed by Alfred Hitchcock that says 'When a child, a child of any age, Marnie, can't get love it takes what it can get, any way it can get it."
"Rampant abuse of power, abuse of children..."
Surely you're not daring to claim that these are generally Catholic traits? You really don't seem aware of much about these people, Ellajac. It's really simple: the Catholic faith was not formed on the foundation of brainwashing or child abuse and true Catholics do not do this today. The sect, however, DOES and they were formed on this basis. Public schools do not have a "culture" either; they simply teach safety and, once again, they were not formed on the basis of brainwashing so any comparison of them to a deliberate sect is faulty.
And please: enough of comparing our feelings about this cult to how some outsiders might treat Christianity. It's not the same. We know that this group is a cult; you know it, I know it, everyone with common sense knows it and there's no comparison between us and the hate-mongering anti-Christians who label all religious people as cults.
"if we're going to use 'belief system' as the 'abuse"
You know perfectly well what we've been considering as abuse and it goes far beyond "belief systems" alone.
Ellajac,
Thanks for replying. Concerning blood atonement, I think it was Carolyn Jessop's book ('Escape')that suggested to me that there was indeed a connection with the Warren Jeffs group.
To the best of my memory, she writes that her sister Merrilina (I think it was her sister, bit hard to keep track of the family relationships when the families are so large), was threatened with blood atonement for running away from her husband (much older than herself and already the husband of many wives).
I could be wrong about this; I am also not a scholar on Mormonism or any churches that have broken away from it.
By the way, I don't think that people who write books for financial gain are automatically suspect as being liars. After all, many Christians write books too and for financial gain too. It is possible to BOTH want to reveal the truth and to seek to make a living while doing so.
I have no proof of this (other than the testimonies of 'survivors') but it is worth considering as a possibility:
I have also heard accounts that fear and intimidation is used to silence members and former members. It is thus possible that even former members are afraid to speak openly of abuse that took place for fear of retribution.
Concerning Planned Pregnancy's encouragement of teen sex and the like, doubtlessly they do that. However, there is a difference between encouragement/influence and mind control, threats and fear.
Jennifer,
I'm pretty certain that you and I would agree on the definition of abuse. I'm talking about Angie Voss' (I think it was her) comments in court. She's a CPS something-or-other. "When asked whether Voss would consider allowing mothers to stay with their children if they agreed to leave the ranch, she said it wouldn't be acceptable unless they disavowed their belief." So, whether or not the mothers are good mothers, whether or not they're abusive, apparently this IS about religion, at least for Voss. Maybe not to you.
"Surely you're not daring to claim that these are generally Catholic traits?"
No more than I can comfortably say that they are "generally FLDS traits." Not yet. Truly, ANY religion has it's abusers. I would expect there to be SOME abuse at FLDS, even perhaps without the history and rumor. But what you call brainwashing just might not be. I've seen brainwashing defined as having to occur within the bounds of imprisoning (which some claim happens with FLDS, current and some former FLDS disagree) and abuse. Is it brainwashing to train my children to obey or to follow Christ? What if they become willing to die for their faith? Are they faithful, or are they brainwashed? How many cultures around the world make it normal practice to marry when the girls are yet teens? How many early Americans did the same? Obviously your average Britney-idolizing teen is in no place of maturity to marry or parent... But once upon a time girls of that age were more mature and capable and prepared for such a role (again, I wasn't around in 1825, just guessing). Texas itself was okay with 14-year-olds marrying until 2005. I can't take a culture that says 'marriage and motherhood are the most important thing you will do in this life' (and some families doing that early) and automatically draw the line to brainwashing. And, as many of the FLDS have claimed, there is no 'set age' for marriage. There is no tenet of their faith that encourages young girls to marry. There seems to be a tendency toward that for some families, but perhaps it's more of a teenager wanting to 'move on' in life; I felt like that.
"there's no comparison between us and the hate-mongering anti-Christians who label all religious people as cults"
My goodness I hope you're right. But when the hate-mongering anti-Christians decide that what you or your church is teaching your children is dangerous (check out the UN convention on the Rights of the Child), remind them how there's "no comparison" here.
Eirini,
I haven't read Carolyn's book, and I'm not trying to say she's a liar. I've heard from some who knew her that her account is ... much sensationalized. I guess my judgment is withheld, in the same way I might withhold judgment after a tale told me by a woman after a bitter divorce. Perhaps moreso, because bitter divorcees don't usually write/sell books. Before this I would've been (sadly) the first to light my torch and go marching after these FLDS men..."Kill the Beast!" But I'm just seeing more and more that we might be wrong to rely solely on the claims of angry ex-members. And I had done that.
There is a blog written by a former member. He was sent away, leaving a wife and children. While I find that BEYOND reprehensible, he claims that many leave, some like him, some that choose it. 95% live a nice, quiet life, and 5% for whatever reason, grab headlines. And because they are so secretive and 'foreign', we believe every terrible tale (at least, that's my take).
Alyzza, you don't get to take away people's children because they believe in a reprehensible 'prophet.' Texas can only remove children for four reasons.
Not one of those four reasons applied to every household. They don't have rampant under-aged marriage.
Until late in 2005, it was legal for girls as young as 14 to marry if they had parental consent. Texas raised the age from 14 to 16 in 2005 specifically to target FLDS.
When the state got their grand total of 20 girls who have been pregnant at some time while under-age, they did that by counting backwards so far that they were claiming as under-aged mothers women who had given birth at ages that were *perfectly* legal at the time they gave birth.
There was also only one example of an 'old man' married to a young girl- a man in his sixties married to a 16 or 17 year old. So prosecute. Instead, the state took four hundred children away, and gave him six weeks or more to leave the state.
There was a 16 year old who married a 19 year old- if she has legal parental permission, that's not illegal in the state of Texas.
There where the man was in his twenties, and one or two in their thirties. That may be distasteful, and if the girls were 16 and not 17, it is illegal, but we have to admit this is a social construct.
The families from Yearning for Zion in Texas deserve to be charged or not based on what THEY have done, not things their cousins in Utah did ten years ago.
It is wrong to try the members of the entire religious community as a group instead of individually.
Just my personal view, and for what it's worth... it seems that this statement has been forgotten... "My blog is not a debate blog. It is a place for women to be encouraged and have their thinking challenged. You can disagree, of course, but don't expect a long, drawn out debate - I don't have time for it."... I read through all of the posts, and I just couldn't help but think of Stacy's admonition. There seems to be some long, drawn out debating going on! But like I said, that's just MY opinion... ;)
I just hopped on here to thank Stacy for keeping this issue fresh in our minds. Whether or not we agree with what has been going on- we still need to remember to speak in love. I know that I had allowed this situation to sit on the backburner while my own life got in the way- and I have fogotten to pray for the Lord's working in this entire situation... yes, much of what I admit- I do not know, nor understand. However, I was reminded of how often something touches a chord in my heart, I react, and then quickly it becomes dull and quiet long before action is taken! Thank you Stacy for reminding me of the situation in Texas!
Ellejac, thanks for your explanations. I'm glad to see you're thinking clearly on this matter
And the little boys may not be in imminent danger, but some FLDS boys are driven out of the compounds at the tender ages of 12-15. I truly hope that doesn't happen at this compound, and they're just normal families who happen to have slightly different values.
Ellajac,
Thanks again for replying and for your thought-provoking comments.
I am not basing my assessment of the FLDS on any ONE book. I think it's more a case that my opinion is 'THERE IS TOO MUCH SMOKE FOR THERE NOT TO bE ANY FIRE AT ALL'.
And while I would never say that this 'smoke' excuses what your government has done, I would definitely assert that the 'smoke' permits - no, demands - a very thorough investigation.
I mentioned Carolyn Jessop's book only to answer your question on how blood atonement might be connected to the Warren Jeffs group (because I remembered the example fairly clearly from there).
Just a thought I had: why would the account of someone who said that Jessop's book was greatly sensationalised be automatically more trustworthy than the assertions made in the book itself?
I mean, it would seem there is just as much possibility for one side to be 'lying' as the other?
But whle we're talking about the accounts of those who have left the cult: What about the case of the young woman who was the first to prosecute Jeffs as an accessory to statuatory rape?
Shall we assume that because something is sensationalized in the media it has no basis in truth?
I guess that might mean that a very large amount of news stories would have to be disqualified as 'truth', as the media will certainly sensationalize any story that has the potential.
Is the media not perhaps curently sensationalizing the YFZ ranch story? Rhetorical question only.
Just a thought I had: why would the account of someone who said that Jessop's book was greatly sensationalised be automatically more trustworthy than the assertions made in the book itself?
I mean, it would seem there is just as much possibility for one side to be 'lying'/driven by ulterior motives as the other?
Thank you for your warning reminder not to take as gospel truth the account of any human being. It is always good to remember that we are fallible human beings with very subjective perceptions.
Eirini, Yes, I agree, there's enough smoke to warrant some investigation. I think it should be done on a family-by-family basis though, because classifying them by religion is just too broad. There are SEVERAL confirmed families from YFZ who are monogamous, legal-age when married, no evidence or accusations of abuse whose children have been seized. Based on what? Religion? Neighborhood? Slippery slope, that.
I don't automatically believe one side or the other. The fact there ARE two sides make it an issue that deserves research and careful investigation. Ex-FLDSers who claim Carolyn's story and others are exaggerated should be weighted equal to her story, I guess, all other things being equal. I DO find it strange that someone who was FLDS a decade ago, and suffered abuse from their own family can somehow be an Expert on current FLDS and other families. So I don't take those accounts as Expert any more than I take the former (but supportive) FLDS' claims that things are okie-dokie. We've heard a lot about the Lost Boys issue; I've found another side to that too... Apparently the "original" lost boys on the capitol steps in SLC are embarrassed to this day about it. The "safe" house is/was a "party" house where the wild boys (and girls, sometimes) go to hang out and drink away from their parent's supervision. Again, I dunno... But it's an interesting angle.
Ellajac,
I only accidentally saw your comment while browsing tonight; the previous times I didn't see it.
Concerning the 'Lost Boys' issue, I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to. Is the issue connected to the FLDS? My lack of knowledge is doubtlessly connected to the cultural divide (i.e. my being European, this being primarily a US issue?)
'there's enough smoke to warrant some investigation. I think it should be done on a family-by-family basis though, because classifying them by religion is just too broad.'
I would agree with you, except in cases where the religion itself includes beliefs/ practices that constitute or encourage abuse.
To the best of my knowledge:
- Warren Jeffs has been convicted of being an accessory to statuatory rape
- It would seem that if a command for an underage, forced marriage to occur is issued from the man considered to be God's prophet and voice, the practice is inded connected to religious belief
- There is no indication (that I know of) that the co-ercion leading to underage marriage was an isolated or exceptional case
- There is no evidence that the underage mariage (i.e. statuatory rape) was a secret - it seems that the community at large knew about it and either approved or were too afraid to speak out
- Warren Jeffs was and still is considered by many as the prophet of their movement: his word carries tremendous weight, as it is understood to be an expression of divine will (as I understand it).
-His example also carries tremendous weight.
- There is a long history of alleged abuse connected to this cult; I doubt that they would have been targeted for an investigation otherwise.
-The allegations keep repeating themselves (particularly regarding the TYPES of abuse: child labour, underage marriage, plural marriage, forced marriage, etc).
Again, I'm not condoning what your government did but I do think it is a complicated issue and one in which it would not be easy to identify the 'right' way to investigate.
I think that abuse is particularly difficult to uncover in a secretive, closed commuity.The checks that exist in society, generally speaking, may not be in operation there. And rampant abuse of power within such a closed community might make things even harder.
Anyway, your courts appear to be investigating the investigators, so it seems there is some accountability there.
At least, these children will be protected from abuse at the hands of government officials.
How and whether they will be protected, from possible abuse at the hands
of their parents and other cult members is another story... .
Concerning Carolyn Jessop's book, I agree that much (although deinitely not all) the abuse she describes occurred within her own family.
My concern is that, according to her descriptions, those affected by abusive behaviour within the family had no recourse to help within the community and would not be allowed to seek help outside.
Such a trend might make it easy for abuse to flourish,as the possibility of someone finding out and intervening is small.
I think that this aspect might be typical in closed communities in which abuse of power by religious leaders takes place.
It's also been asserted that the events Jessop describes in her book took place a decade ago. I'm happy to take Ellajac's word for this as it's been a while since I read the book and I don't remember some details.
However, I think that the history of alleged abuse within this religious group extends beyond a decade. And some accusations are just repeated over and over again, by different people at different times and in different places.
This alone would make me suspicious.
It might be worth noting that a lot of the abuse described did not occur within the family context, but at the hands of religious leaders. And one form of abuse was, in my opinion and to the best of my memory, that religious leaders refused to help when family abuse was reported to them.
Even if her story is exaggerated as claimed, I would still find it shocking: If only 50% were true, it would still constitute a case of very serious abuses.
'I don't automatically believe one side or the other.'
No, neither do I. Carolyn Jessop could be lying in order to gain money from a sensational story.
The other side could be lying from fear of retribution at the hands of the cult, fear of what could happen to family members still inside the cult (for eg, wife and kids that they were forced to leave)etc.
' The fact there ARE two sides make it an issue that deserves research and careful investigation.'
I agree; there are some sites dedicated to research in a nonsensationalist manner. They appear to be very carefully researched, and backed up by historical evidence. I could e-mail you links privately if you like.
Concerning an acceptable age for a woman to get married, I think the Bible is clear that we're to obey the laws of the country.
I understand that to be the CURRENT laws of the country. Not those operational prior to 2005.
And not those operational in other parts of the world, but in our own country.
I think it's possible that laws allwing marriage at age 14 were repealed because girls of that age may be especially vulnerable to manipulation by their parents and others.
Post a Comment